full image - Repost: [2 New Updates] My foster family of 11 years is kicking me out by the end of the week. I have no where to go and I feel broken. (from Reddit.com, [2 New Updates] My foster family of 11 years is kicking me out by the end of the week. I have no where to go and I feel broken.)
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I am NOT OOP. Original post by u/Candid-Spot-5015 in r/TrueOffMyChest, r/AITAH and r/u_Candid-Spot-5015Trigger warnings Foster care abandonment, financial exploitation, emotional distressEditors Note: Updates 5 and 6 are new to BORUpdates, I have included replies for extra context, this are not necessary for understanding the situation with OOP but I recommend reading them. If you choose to just read the main posts from OOP you should still fully understand the situation. This is an ongoing situation.Original – 25 July 2024 12:03AMUpdate – 25 July 2024 12:43PMUpdate 2 – 25 July 2024 6:20PMUpdate 3 – 26 July 2024Update 4 – 26 July 2024NEW Update 5 – 27 July 2024NEW Update 6 – 28 July 2024My foster family of 11 years is kicking me out by the end of the week. I have no where to go and I feel broken.25 July 2024 12:03AMI (18M) was told earlier today that I need to pack up and leave by the end of the week. I still feel in shock.I was removed from my biological family when I was 7 due to issues with my parents, I was then placed in foster care and then matched with a couple who I will call the 'Peters' (it's not their real name, no matter how much I actually want to blast their real info I won't). The Peters were always really nice to me, and since I moved in when I was pretty young after a while I started to consider them my parents. I called them 'mum' and 'dad'. Treated them as my parents, treated their biological son as my brother.I wasn't their only foster child, they also have a 9 year old boy who has lived with us for a little over a year. I was never adopted by them, I know why because they live off the fostering allowance. Something that never really bothered me, they told me that it didn't matter and that legality didn't make us a family. Which I believed. I went on their agency website earlier today and I found out that they are getting paid at least £2400 for me per month. Or at least they were. Since I turned 18 they stopped getting the allowance.However they applied for a staying put arrangement for me, which meant they would continue getting paid something as they continue to support me and let me live with them. It wasn't as much, I think it was like £1000 per month. They told me they had it approved until I was 21, so I thought I'd be able to stay at least until I finished Uni.They sat me down today and told me I had to leave. They told me that fostering is a business and that they couldn't afford to keep me on just the stay put arrangement allowance. They told me I had until the end of the week. 4 days. How generous of them. They said they need my room because they want to get a new foster placement. They literally told me it's 'not personal'. Like that makes me feel any fucking better. They said they would still consider me 'like a son', not 'their son' anymore. 'Like a son' And that they want to 'keep in touch'. What a joke.They choose to kick me out. An 18 year old with no job. No income. No nothing. About to start university. Yet their bio-son who is 25 gets to stay?So yeah. I guess fuck me right? I'm just the one no one ever wanted. I guess I wasn't ever truly part of their family.Relevant commentsAccomplished-Emu-591I am sorry for your situation. However, you should contact the agency that was paying them, tell them what they did, and ask for referrals to other organizations that can provide you assistance with finding employment and attending uni.It is even possible that your report of their behavior would make them ineligible for further paid foster placement. Not likely, but possible.NoAddress1159 responding to Accomplished-Emu-591Calling your former social worker is 100% a great idea OP. Or going to citizens advice. There is plenty of support available to former foster children and they will help you find what you’re eligible for.The part about reporting them, sadly there wouldn’t be anything legally wrong, or against any fostering practices for what they’re doing. As long as they don’t continue to claim on the staying put order, that is. In England fostering is generally treated more as a business than as something you do for love, as it is in the US. Which has its upsides and its downsides. Morally though, the peters are despicable people in my opinion.JenninMiamiI’m so sorry. If it makes you feel any better, many, many parents kick their biological kids out once they turn 18 too.Candid-Spot-5015 (OOP) responding to JenninMiamiIt doesn't really if I'm honestMouseAndLadybugI'm so sorry this is happening to you, these are garbage people.I'd be reporting them for fraud, they can't accept money to have you stay there if you aren't.Candid-Spot-5015 (OOP) responding to MouseAndLadybugThey'll probably cancel the staying put arrangement all together, so I don't think they'll continue to be paid for me after I leave. Though that is something I am 100% be checking in a few weeks.SnooDonuts5498Join the military- it’s a great place for a young man and you’ll have benefits the rest of your life.Candid-Spot-5015 (OOP) responding to SnooDonuts5498fuck offPoeBoyFromPoeFamilyThey're doing it for the money. That is why.It's unfortunate and they sound horrid. I'm sorry, OP. I hope it all works out for you. Leaving will suck, but at least you won't be surrounded by greedy leeches.Candid-Spot-5015 (OOP) responding to PoeBoyFromPoeFamilyI thought they were my family. I'm genuinely considering going NC with them after I'm set up whatever I'll end up next week.kucky94 responding to Candid-Spot-5015 (OOP)You absolutley should. You were 7 when you went into their care. They denied you the opportunity to find a real family who love you for you and not the $$ you brought in. Fuck them. You deserve better.Candid-Spot-5015 (OOP) responding to kucky94I doubt anyone would have adopted me. I wasn't a great kid, in truth had more issues than a hospital piss pot. I wasn't a great kid in any sense. But I changed. Genuinely I changed.I can't help but wonder if this is because of how I was as a young child.naynay130318I'm so sorry this has happened to you Honey, you must be feeling awful. Do you have a care leavers personal advisor? Not sure which area you are in. They should be supporting you to find move on accommodation in a supported setting If needed or support you to approach your local housing office for support.Without cause, your foster family cannot give you 4 days notice to leave, they would need to give formal notice which is usually about 4 weeks. It would be worth calling your children's services duty / out of hours telephone number and explaining the situation, because it will be whoever is responsible( i.e the personal advisors) team who will be paying the staying put fees to the foster carers, so there is someone who is responsible and will need to provide immediate support to help youXCandid-Spot-5015 (OOP) responding to naynay130318Yeah I’m meeting with him today. I’m going to tell him they’ve given me a verbal 4 day notice and that I need urgent help.If I’m honest I don’t want to stay here anymore, the whole dynamic has changed and none of them even look me in the eyes now. But I’m not going to make myself homeless, so I’ll stay until I have accommodation and I’m not leaving the house until I do.BrightAd306It is awful, but if they counted on that money to make rent, they might not have much of a choice. I wouldn’t conduct myself that way, but not every foster couple is richCandid-Spot-5015 (OOP) responding to BrightAd306They own their own home.And just some quick maths for anyone interested:I don't know what package I was placed on because there's a difference allowance for each package, but according to the fostering agency website the minimum was £2,400 for me, it goes to a maximum of 3,400 per month but I'll estimate off the lowest. Mine obviously stopped but it would be the same for the 9M foster placement they have now.So, 2,400x12= 28,800 per year. Plus my 12,000 per year from the staying put order. Gave them a nice 40,800 per year. Which they would pay little, if any tax on as fostering allowance is taxed very lightly here.That maybe doesn't sound a lot to Americans with your high wages, but the average post tax wage where I live is 23,985 per year.They had enough I think.Mini Update25 July 2024 12:43PMOkay, thank you guys for all your advice. Honestly I was in a state of shock yesterday, maybe still am today. I wasn't thinking straight. I only slept two hours last night, thats all so I'm probably a little delirious today as well. Firstly, I have contacted my Personal Advisor, he'll having an emergency meeting with me at half 1, so I'll have more details about what's going to happen to me then. He'll hopefully be able to sort out emergency accommodation for me.Secondly, to those of you saying the Peters can't legally just give me 4 days notice to leave, I will definitely be mentioning this to my PA and get his advice on it. I don't want to stay here any longer than I need to because since they told me it's like I don't exist. They just look right through me. But I'm not going to move out until I have safe accommodation for me, I will outright refuse. I am not going to be made homeless. Thirdly, those of you saying contact my Uni, I have an offer from them but its only conditional if I get my predicted A-levels. Hopefully I will, but since I'm not technically a student yet, I don’t know if they will actually provide any support yet. Finally, I am also going to ensure that the staying put allowance stops, I will tell my PA today that it should surely be stopped if I’m not living with them. Luckily I have some money saved, some people here have said I should be entitled to a bursary when I start Uni, and I’ll have my maintenance student loan to help me. I’ve already started looking for a job. Relevant commentsSnaggl3t00t4Good luck! I'd cut all ties with them...they are not good people.CelebrationMain8329Good luck OP, I am here rooting forUpdate 225 July 2024 6:20PMOkay hi everyone, I just got home and am feeling incredibly tired so this is just going to be a short update. Basically I had a big long meeting with my PA and he was very sympathetic and felt upset that the Peters are treating me this way. We had one meeting and then I went to get food while he spoke to the Peters directly and then I came back to meet him again to let me know everything that has happened.He's putting me on the list for social housing. I am hopful that it will not be long until I am able to get my own house. I recorded the meeting because I'm so sleep deprived and also I have really bad memory processing for long things like that because of my dyslexia/autism or something I'm not sure. I can listen to it again tomorrow after I've slept but from what I gather they will help me with paying for rent costs, I will also get some money to help pay for furniture and things like that. When he spoke to the Peters I don't know if he said they had to keep me housed for a while or asked them to I'm not sure. But they've agreed to keep housing me until the end of August. So at least I don't have to worry about everything happening in 3 days times. He did tell me that if I feel uncomfortable I can be moved into a youth hostal place while they wait for a property to be available for me. But I said if I can I would rather stay with the Peters until I am ready to move. Even if it makes me feel a little uncomfortable. He told me they will continue getting paid the Staying Put allowance until the day I offically move out, and then it will be stopped. On a completely separate note, my best friend and I had a huge argument earlier. He said that I'm being ungrateful and honestly what he's said really hurt me. We had a huge argument. I just thought out of everyone he would get me and understand what I was going through. Maybe not. Maybe I'm being unreasonable, I am really tired so maybe my emotions are just not being controlled well at the moment. I am going to talk to him tomorrow after I've slept and I'm hoping this argument will just blow over because I need him at the moment. I don't feel like I have anyone else. Oh and I haven't read all comments because I didnt expect to get so many. thank you everyone who have offered support. It is genuinely so sweet and I am so thankful.Relevant commentsjenay820Glad things are working out. Don't worry about your friend. Right now you are in survival mode... trying to make sure you aren't on the streets. Hope everything keeps working out for you!Candid-Spot-5015 (OOP) responding to jenay820He said I should be grateful that they “kept me” that long anyway. Like the fuck? I’m not a pet. He also said some other things like how it’s good that they’re going to help another child like I was. Which is true and I get that it’s a good thing what they’re doing to help people.But Him saying those things make me feel like I’m being crazy for wanting to stay like I was promised by them?Ugh I’m too tired and maybe I’m being irrational. I’m going to talk again with him tomorrow and say I’m sorryLong and unimportant rant.26 July 2024It never bothered me that they were paid to keep me before. Genuinely never bothered me at all. I always knew I was a foster child, I was about 15 when I learnt that they were paid money to look after me. And I told myself it was a good thing. And it probably was. I got loving parents for 11 years, which is more than some people can say.I just didn’t ever think they’d make me move out when the payments stopped being as high. I’ve found out that when I was still a child they were paid £111.82 per day for me. That’s £40,814 per year.I had never felt different to the family, I had always felt loved and secure. I don’t understand why they have changed their minds about me. None of them will even look at me in the eyes anymore and it’s gotten to the point where I can’t leave my room anymore because all I feel is the absence of the love that used to be there.I didn’t come down for any meal times, which was a rule that you had to before. If I didn’t go down before I wouldn’t have gotten any food. But mum brought it up to my room and knocked on the door to say she was going to leave it there for me. I’ve used that 100 times over and over again in my head to try and convince myself that they still love me.I called her by her first name when I came home yesterday. Not “mum”, “Claire”. She looked upset when I did that and a part of me is happy about that and a part of me feels cruel for it. I knew it would hurt her and I did it anyway.In some ways I wish she wakes up to the pain she’s causing me. I hope she takes it back and says that it is a lapse in judgment and that she loves me and wants me to stay. But if that were going to come I think it would have already.I guess I’m not worth the £76 per day they lose by not replacing me with another foster child. When I feel bad about hurting them I remind myself they’re kicking me out to get an extra £76 a day. That’s what I’m worth to them.£76 per day.Relevant commentsCandid-Spot-5015 (OOP)I don’t expect anyone to read this or care. But I want to say thank you for the immense love you’ve all shown me. I feel nothing but gratitude to you all.MiInBadBookI’d like to think, at least a part of the reason for their lack of eye contact and emotional withdrawal is due to their feelings of absolute embarrassment, guilt and shame. That she seemed upset with being called her name, I feel, somewhat supports thisAnd they should feel this way. However, I really do hope they can put these feelings, and their egos, to the side and take steps to actively make amends and rebuild the relationship.I really am sorry this is happening and I’m so very happy you had a secure and safe childhood.ETA - I follow you, and read your posts, because I really want you to be okay. You didn’t deserve this, no child does no matter their struggles. I’ve been thinking about you and putting all the good thoughts out there for you.iamjennfranceYour feelings are valid and important ♥️You are not alone. /Adopted is a great group here on reddit just for adoptees, people who understand bc they've been there. You can also find groups on Facebook and there may even be local groups in your area if you'd like to connect with people in person.You're doing amazing!WIBTA for going NC with the family that raised me for 11 years?26 July 2024Okay I am going to try and condense this as much as possible.Basically I (18M) got removed from my bio-family when I was 7. I got taken into foster care and was matched with a family called the “Peters”. I was then raised by the Peters for the remainder of my life, from 7 all the way until now.They had originally told me that I was able to live with them indefinitely, as I considered the Peters my family. And they applied for a staying put order with me, which basically means they continued to get paid something like £250 by the government to recognise that they’re continuing to support a former foster child (me) after my 18th birthday.As I said before, I was always told by the Peters I could say as long as I needed to to set myself up in life. Their bio-son (who I considered my brother) is 25 and still lives with them, he doesn’t work but did graduate university 2 years ago.I have a conditional offer at a local university which I’m studying Classics with aims to become a teacher. I start in October (if I get my predicted A-Levels which I think I will).But the Peters told me that I had to leave by the end of the week because they wanted to get another foster child, this is something they really sprung on me. And it’s been extremely difficult for me. I had to get in contact with my social worker who spoke with the Peters and now they’re letting me stay until the end of August but the whole family has changed.I explained all this to my best friend, and I said I was considering going NC with them after I moved out. He ranted to me about ungrateful I’m being to them. And how they raised me for 11 years and now they want to give that to another child in a position like I was.I get that, and that’s part of the reason why I feel so guilty. My friend isn’t speaking to me now calling me selfish for wanting to stay with the Peters like I was promised? And for them trying to get rid of me with 4 days notice. There were plans they could have taken to transition me into independent living before I turned 18 and they chose not to take part in them because they told me I could always stay with them.The one time of my life I needed my friend and he’s gone too and I feel so alone and I can’t understand why he’s taking their side over mine.I understand the argument that they will continue to help another child, but at the same time I just wish they didn’t have to throw me out to do so. When I suggested to my friend they could have asked their bio-son to move out instead of me and he just said I’m being selfish.I still don't even know if I am going to go NC with them I just said I felt like doing it and I wish I didn't even say that because I didn't expect it to cause such an argument.So, AITA?Relevant commentsTop_Reveal_847You poor kid, your friend is an AH and you're certainly not.Even if there is another kid waiting and desperately in need, they could have and should have AT LEAST let you plan ahead more than a few days in advance, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Are you foster parents at least helping you find a place?Edit to add that you should let someone at the university know. Idk how it's done where you are but some universities have programs for stuff like thisWarDog1983YNTAThe peters are using the fostering system to support themselves. They do NOT care about helping the kids. They say that to justify there callous treatment of you.They should not be foster parents.I’m sorry about your friend his POV is a betrayal because it is simply wrong.scotswaeheyDude my cousin used to foster kids , she fostered 3 sisters and one other girl. I used the words used to because she adopted them as she wasn’t in if for the money!Candid-Spot-5015 (OOP) responding to scotswaeheyI don’t really even care that they were looking after me and getting money for it. It doesn’t bother me. I never knew how much they were getting to look after me, but I did know they were being paid. It does make me hurt and betrayed that they’re kicking me out for a difference of 70 something pounds a day.Material_Cellist4133NTA.Also you are far from ungrateful. You were 100% grateful until they made it about money.You thought they took care of you because they were good people. Instead they took care of you for money. It’s an even exchange. Nothing to be grateful about.The Peters found my reddit posts.27 July 2024The Peters' son (Jamie) has found the my original reddit post. I guess I should have been more carful with the details but my mind was so frantic at the point of writing it I just couldn't think straight. I'm not sure how he found it, but considering it has almost 10k upvotes and Jamie was the person who introduced me to reddit I guess it might have just popped up on his page? Does anyone know if it might have popped up to him because we're on the same network/in the same location?A few hours ago Jaime came to my room. He showed me the original post and asked if I had written it. At first I tried to deny it, but I'm an awful liar so he just knew. He asked why I didn't tell him about this, and I said I thought he knew. He told me he had no idea and would not have supported his parents throwing me out if he did. He was told I requested to move out. He genuinely seemed shocked and appalled at the details in the post.Against my wishes he shared the posts in the family group chat, he did this out of a place of wanting to defend me. 'Mum, dad, I really think you should read this and see the impact this is having on...' But I really wish he didn't do it.They've both read the message but neither have responded. I have not left my room since. I'm really anxious right now. Like I'm at the level before a panic attack. I can feel one coming on.Relevant Commentspolly6119Stay calm and know that you did nothing wrong. They may try to gaslight you. They may lie to your brother. They don't have a good track record for being decent people. But no matter what they do, remember you did nothing wrong.They cannot throw you out because of it. They have learned their lesson on that. I'm glad to know your brother didn't agree with their horrible decision and I'm glad that he found out. Him not looking you in the eye these past couple of days may have had something to do with the tension already in the air and him thinking you just up and wanted to leave.I hope it turns out that they realize their mistakes and apologize profusely. But brace yourself for that not happening and that they may get upset with you for "airing dirty laundry". They may end up trying to guilt you and blame everything on you. They may do nothing.Please please remember, no matter what they say and no matter what your ex best friend said, You. Did. Nothing. Wrong.Your feelings are valid. You deserve love. You did not deserve what they did to you.AfternoonAgitated803Calm and breath. Sounds like he's being a big brother and sticking up for you, because for him your his sister and he loves you. So talk to him more lean on him more, he's an adult he can handle it.The moving out, the "peters" could have really dealt with this in such a better way, they could have talked to you about now that your an adult and soon going to university, we'll go and talk to your case worker about finding you your own place to live and we'll be able to help another little kid just like you when you came here, but you've got to come round for Sunday dinner.... or something like that .... they handled this sooooooo badly saying yes you can stay till 21 then telling you exactly the money they receive and then telling you to get out by the end of the week where did they expect you to go ffs? Do the Foster parents not work at all? Or are the children their only job? And although he's being a good brother to you right now if he finished uni 2 years ago, why isn't he working or getting training or something? 2 years of not putting his degree to use will show those in whatever field he did the degree in that he has no work ethic at all.I've just tonight been reading through all your posts and I completely understand why your thinking of going lc with Foster parents, they've handled it really really badly and next time you see your case worker ask them do Foster parents not get training or anything on how to handle this situation of when a child is reaching 18? Tell the case worker you want notes or something put on their file of how badly they have handled this so that any future Foster kids they look after their file shows this is what they do when the money drops down so that a future case worker can put the child's needs first and they don't go through what you went through.With your friend, he's being a bit of an AH im guessing by the language used he has the PRIVILEGE of living with his birth parents his whole life and is no danger of being told he has to get out in 5 days? He is not acknowledging he's in a POSITION of PRIVILEGE in this situation ..... id message him and say ..... these last few days have been crazy and although you wouldn't know what it feels like to be in this position i was just looking for a friend to listen. It's been a stressful and upsetting few days and I don't want to fall out with you. ... and just suggest something you usually do together if you play a computer game or just hang out ... end it with do you wanna play comp/hang out tomorrow? ....... and leave it at that and see what they say. FairyRebelsWildTo the Peters:From OP's posts, it sounds like you had a genuine relationship with him (or at least he felt you did). It's good that you were able to provide a stable family life for him.Considering that you had originally told OP he could stay and you had applied for him staying put, I'm going to assume that somehow, your circumstances changed. That sucks. But you handled this in the worst way possible.You should have approached OP in a collaborative manner, explaining the situation. Phrased it as not being able to support him anymore, rather than fostering being a business. Explored if him getting a job and financially contributing would have helped. Actually help him connect with his PA for those transitional services and with their advice, making a realistic move-out date.Everything you did was wrong.Saying fostering is a business taints every family interaction or affection as fake and transactional. I daresay pretending to be his family is worse than if you had kept it "business-like" from the beginning.Verbal 4 days notice is actually heartless. How cruel and frankly, unrealistic, especially as you knew (being the ones to have originally allowed him to stay) that he wasn't applied to the transitional services yet.You can't expect him to continue treating you as family while you treat him as a former business colleague. Again, heartless and unrealistic. I hope you learn to be more empathetic to your future foster kids, or at least, be honest to them about your intentions from the beginning.What I'm going to send in the family group chat; is this a bad idea?28 July 2024To Matt and Claire.I came to you as a 7 year old. A 7 year old who had never felt love or affection, or anything remotely nice. I was taught at a young age to fear those in authority. To fear the sudden changes in the moods of my birth parents. I was taught to bottle up my emotions and my pain and never show it. When I first came to you, my life was ruled by fear and anxiety.I know my behaviours back then were awful, were a struggle to manage. I had been taught there were no consequences for some actions. And firm, scary and hard consequences for others. The worst part was that those actions never seemed to be consistent. I could do something one day and be praised by my birth family, and another day I would be beaten. Love was not something given, it was something earned. It was conditional and shallow.You both showed me another way. You showed me love and affection, and at first it felt confusing and hard to comprehend. I couldn't see myself as anything more than a nuisance, I couldn't see why someone would love me. I couldn't understand why you weren't beating me. Do you remember me telling you "you can hit me if I be naughty, I won't mind" ? Slowly you taught me to trust and love myself, and those around me.You showed me that no matter what I did, you wouldn't give up on me. You wouldn't send me away or hate me. And I really tried to make you. I know that. I was scared. You made me realise that it wasn't my own fault I was in care, and that I wasn't to blame for the things that happened to my birth family. You showed me appropriate outlets to my fears.You showed me love, compassion, and kindness. The first day I remember feeling truly safe was when I was sitting in your arms at 8 years old watching Shrek. I still think back to that moment. It probably just felt like another day to you, but to me, it is a core memory in my life. It's a moment that shapes the way I see myself.You sat up with me when I was worried about moving up to secondary school. You comforted me when my birth mum told me she no longer wanted to be part of my life. You were there when xx broke up with me when I was 15 years old and I felt like my whole world was ending again. You encouraged me to go beyond with my studies and apply to University. The most important thing you showed me was that I was worthy of being loved and respected.You never gave up on me. I am who I am today because of what you did. I look at myself and I see compassion, and care, and kindness. And in those traits I see you. You weren't my birth family but you were my family. My only family.I just... I don't know what changed. Why has there been a switch? Why have you gone from the loving and caring parents you were?When I leave my room now, I no longer feel that love and kindness that brought my out of the pits of despair as a child. It's almost as if you have completely altered the way you see me, and I just can't understand why.A few days ago you told me I had to move out. You gave me 4 days notice to leave my family. You sent me back into feeling like that child at 7 years old. I'm not saying this to guilt you or to ask you to let me stay. That has passed now and unfortunately I don't think I'll ever be able to see you the same way again. I understand if you were hard on money or if you wanted to help another child like me. But why not talk to me? Why spring it on me and then act like I don't matter? Why tell me it's just business? Did you think that would make it hurt less?Since you told me my whole life has been turned upside down and I don't know how I will make it to the other side. If I had felt like this a few weeks ago, do you know who I would have gone to? I would have gone to you. I would have told you my worries and my fears, and you would have said the exact right thing and then we'd sit together and watch some awful TV show. And now, I have no one again. I feel like I'm being told for the second time in my life that I don't deserve a family. And this time I have no one to pick me up off the edge. That was always you mum and dad. It was always you I could rely on.Why are you giving up on me now?Relevant commentsCandid-Spot-5015 (OOP)I really feel like today the whole thing has just hit me in the face again. I think the emotions I was feeling were being blocked and today they've been let out and I've done nothing but cry all day.JaayLovesWritingSend it to them, let them know how you feel, how they hurt you and that they cannot expect you to ever contact them again after you leave. They need to know how you feel. Send it to them and if you want to, leave the GC. Because they may try to justify their actions and you don't need to hear itI am not the OOP. Please do not harass the OOP.Please remember the No Brigading Rule and to be civil in the comments
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