full image - Repost: [03/20/23 11:13 jd0iwgp] /u/figwig-CIG comments in "3.18 Rivers Review....well, it's a start." (from Reddit.com, [03/20/23 11:13 jd0iwgp] /u/figwig-CIG comments in "3.18 Rivers Review....well, it's a start.")
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Rivers mean a lot to Star Citizen, as much as people can't really imagine:They set the groundwork for roads, canyons, lava fixtures like volcanoes and lava planets...and any type of post-render modifications on planets beyond "sea level and the base mesh".The reality of what I can only call Tier 0 is disappointing (in the face of cherrypicked framing of media on the lead up) and feels a bit premature to have been added at all to 3.18.I'm not exactly sure what is ACTUALLY being tested here as, from what I understand, the implementation of rivers won't vary from the dev build to the live build, it's no more variable than the planets themselves or cities...it's baked into the map itself and not really necessary to be tested at scale. Seems the devs pressured it to be thrown in to sell the 3.18 package, it feels unnecessary given the state it is in. However, I'm excited to see it progress in further patches.I could OBVIOUSLY be wrong that it doesn't need live testing, and I'm not dieing on that hill.However, if they WANT feedback, which is what I assume this is about...here it is.The Good:- Great visual elements. Object scatter looks good in best cases and overall the rocks, river movement, and concepts that ARE THERE, really help to sell the imagery. Moss or trash underwater, the foliage around the river (for the most part), etc. When it's all lined up? It looks AWESOME.- Love how much length they got out of map tiles not built at all for water dynamics. Sure, they have to cut through some hills, but it gives me hope for the future. You can find some REALLY long rivers that give the illusion of going on quiet awhile, which is all you really need to sell the idea that a planet is more than just a barren waste of trees.- The cliffs look good. If this is an indicator of cliffs going forward I can't wait to see them all over planets.- Honestly if they cut out the river (and problems associated with it) and just used this for making canyons, it wouldn't be half bad. Just remove the lakes/water source and reduce the amount of trees. Would add another layer of fidelity to the planet surface and more places for gameplay variety and problems that need to be overcome. (and great race locations)The Bad:- The prop scatter is WAY off; Trees IN the river (deep) make it look more like a flood basin than a river...cut them out, the exterior area where props should blend into the surrounding area is TOO harsh. It goes from heavy tree cover around the river...to nothing...very quickly. Extending the prop scatter radius would help as well as differentiate nodes for structures (rocks) vs surface organics (trees) to appear inside the water line would be ideal. Imo, they could just simply pull back where trees spawn along the river...as, in reality flooding tends to take out trees along rivers due to their height. (Suggestion 1 goes into a solution)- Some props are just too big to be spawning where they do...large cliff rocks will appear and cut off the entire river.- The tesselation effect is overtuned, and goes too fast. They need to pull it in closer to the core of the river, make it shine lower, and reduce the intensity of it. It should be a MINOR visual element and right now it shows up like a projector on objects. It should be barely noticeable. It could also be slowed down, it feels like strobe going off.- Canyon artifacts...it's too steep and corners of the ground mesh cut into it. If necessary reduce the amount rivers can bend. Ideally I made a larger suggestion at the end (1).- Too homogenous and smooth of lines along the river edge...including clifffs. (1 and 2)The Ugly:- The LODs are DREADFUL and undermine the landscape vistas. This should be top priority, even if they can never get the rivers to look good up close...they shouldn't undermine the visual fidelity of the flight experience. Maybe they can find a way to bake in rivers once they've done a full planetary render (instead of the very small regional one we got)....but as of right now they should just cut rivers if this is what they do to the planets visually.Specifically, they cut up into pieces looking like tape that didn't pull off a surface correctly and ripped up. They reflect the light of the sun like a mirror in strength. And the way they show up doesn't feel blended. Hopefully concerted effort from the team can alleviate this as this will be the SAME issue when we get roads or highways on planets...however sans the reflecting sun problem.- Source and Mouth transitions for lakes are just missing entirely. (4)SuggestionsMore lines of blending outward along the sides of the river to stagger and add more variety to the sides of the rivers....as well as correct for when the river's edges dip BELOW the river almost immediately. Right now there is one outer layer of spline for blending the topography, the one where the cliff props spawn...there should be 2-4 staggered lines of these same things at more extreme waving lines as you move out from the center of the river that connect to the line before it. Having trees and other essential prop scatter points show up between these regions will make it more believable...such as having trees only show up after the SECOND layer out from the river basin....and then having them show up with less density after each subsequent layer (with the reverse being true of rocks).Having the outer lines be VERY wavy allows for more variety along the sides of the canyon to overlap closely or be further out to make it feel less homogenous.Canyons just don't look like this IRL. Having more shelves that help further create variation would really sell it better and make the river seem more integrated into the environment as if it has been there a LONG time and had lots of time to erode the landscape. It also better sells the idea a channel existed in that space before that has been widened.With these secondary and tertiary lines of scatter (and topography blending) for cliffs you could more dramatically increase that variety of how much the line waves further (both side to side and up and down) out as it won't cut into the river and will simply overlap other cliffs...which should blend given it is the same rock.If they want the SUPER canyon effect they have now, having the chance for a steep cliff set can be baked into the procedural set so that all the layers are very close.If there is ANY way to vary the heights of the blending points along the immediate sides of the river...that would be incredible, the water line is more or less perfect except for rock props.2) Mound Props that check to match the ground mesh of the surrounding area that add variation to the river line is the ideal solution to fixing river lines. Little mounds of mud and grass at the top (maybe with a tree node on the top as well) that spawn at the top of the water layer and blend downward that break up the line of the river and along the sides to keep it from being so uniform and smooth. The rocks help but it's obvious what the river actually looks like even if the rock is there. Some of these can create little islands, just they need to be less rare as to cut off the entire river just like LARGE rock props do already.3) "Crossing points"Aka, ways for us to get around rivers in ground vehicles. Shallows low enough to let vehicles pass. A place where rivers get very shallow to allow for vehicles to cross (this may already just be common enough that it isn't an issue).Much like "too many rock props" made planet traversal annoying for people, once rivers get places ALL OVER, you'll see a similar complaint. May as well plan for it.4) River Sourth/End Prop pieces and Lake/Ocean-River mouth transition sets.Right now the mouth into a lake (and eventually oceans) and the river source is just outright terrible. Having a way for a river to believably start in full force would require some type of transition piece...such as a "river mouth" rock prop set...with variable spawn points for surrounding foliage and rock props to blend them. Having one at the start and the option of one at the end (when there isn't a large enough basin for a full sized lake) would help a TON to alleviate the dependence on lakes as an end point. Maybe even blending into a cave piece that has a small interior lake and walkable network. Hell, having one show up on the side of a lake element would also allow for more gameplay.You can also flag for "underground sections" of rivers that are too low to be a canyon and can be flagged as underground caves with a river. Then connect back again at a lower point of altitude for the river to continue on the surface...continue this until it reaches a sea or sea-level and turns into a lake.Lake and Ocean transitions are essential, as of right now there are no ocean connectors but in both cases you need a tile set of river that transitions the river and lake.5) Long term the biggest focus should be bisecting river lines. Having rivers connect to multiple points of origin and connect into a larger stream would be the best way to make them seem more convincing.TLDRShit needs work, the devs probably know this, I'm just throwing in feedback because that's what we are here for.Im super stoked to see further progress on rivers and to see things that follow from that like dry canyons, lava rivers, roads (caravan missions and bombing runs!), and so on.I think the eventual "river caves" set will alleviate a LOT of problems, however the biggest immediate issues are LODs, bad transitions (specifically the source and mouth), and the river looking more like a flood than a river due to trees IN the river and super steep HIGH canyons.Hey! I'm that river dev. I really appreciate this write up! I'm not gonna go through and address every point, but I'd say nearly all of it I'm either aware, working on a fix, or it's waiting on/driving better tech in other areas.The truth is that 3.18 has been pending release for long enough that the river tech you see in the live release is behind where it is in our feature stream. Also, because I've the only river guy, if I'm working on something else (like I am 80% of the time) then no progress is made on them! For 3.18 I've more or less had to ignore river bugs coming my way, as there have been more important priorities.The good news is, the fixes I have made will be coming to live at some point soon (including the trees in the river), and rivers will continue to be improved on, as well as drive improvments to our planet/water tech! I can't say what I'm doing now but let's say the next year or two of planet tech work is really really exciting from a tech standpoint, and will benefit rivers. I can't wait to tell everyone about it when it's done!Author: figwig-CIG - Source: https://ift.tt/ydlVAa9 submission was created by a robot, for more information please message /u/jumbify
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